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IRC transcripts regarding Perl 5 wiki

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Back to official Perl 5 wiki discussion.

#PerlNet, 9th July 2007 Aussie EST

  • (5:18:45 PM) Squern [n=schwern@c-76-105-128-23.hsd1.or.comcast.net] entered the room.
  • (5:18:53 PM) Squern: Hi.
  • (5:18:57 PM) Squern is now known as Schwern
  • (5:19:18 PM) Schwern: I'm the one who decided there should be a Perl 5 wiki, pretty much by fiat.
  • (5:20:08 PM) Schwern: So I'd like to talk about what PerlNet would like, given that its the most complete Perl wiki I've seen.
  • (5:20:53 PM) pfenwick: Woah!
  • (5:21:08 PM) pfenwick: Hey Schwern! I was just writing you an e-mail. ;)
  • (5:21:12 PM) Schwern: PS There's nothing "official" yet about the Perl 5 Wiki except that I declared it so and happen to know the wiki admin for TPF. :)
  • (5:21:27 PM) Schwern: pf: I just noticed you editing the P5 wiki
  • (5:22:04 PM) pfenwick: I thought it would be a shame not to link to existing resources where appropriate.  ;)
  • (5:22:49 PM) pfenwick: Although the perlfoundation.org/perl5 wiki seems to be missing a license for contributions... Have I missed an obvious link?
  • (5:22:55 PM) Schwern: Well, here's the thing. Rather than cross-link, all things being equal I'd just suck the general Perl 5 content off PerlNet and onto the TPF wiki.
  • (5:23:11 PM) Schwern: Nope, its missing. I just set the thing up today dead blank.
  • (5:23:47 PM) Schwern: I can write one.
  • (5:24:00 PM) pfenwick: Schwern: Hence my question about licenses. It'd be nice if the wikis could suck material off each other and cross-pollinate.
  • (5:24:55 PM) pfenwick: PerlNet is intended for all things Perl, but is specifically targeted at Perl in AU/NZ.
  • (5:26:05 PM) Schwern: Ok. I'd considered just declaring that the Perl 5 wiki but yes, it seemed regional.
  • (5:26:06 PM) pfenwick: It uses the CC-by-sharealike license, which in hindsight may have been better as GPL/Artistic.
  • (5:26:24 PM) Schwern: I'll likely just license things "same as Perl 5".
  • (5:26:37 PM) Schwern: The Perl 6 wiki is "same as Perl 6"
  • (5:27:04 PM) Schwern: Socialtext doesn't seem to have a nice place to put the license agreement.
  • (5:27:13 PM) pfenwick: That seems a little odd.
  • (5:27:26 PM) Schwern: They're targetted originally to intranets.
  • (5:28:13 PM) pfenwick: The CC-by-sa license was mainly so that Perl focused companies could add information to about themselves to PerlNet and still retain a greater level of control than would be afforded by the GPL/Artistic. Unfortunately we don't seem to have as many Perl focused businesses as we'd like.
  • (5:31:20 PM) Schwern: I figure any entity involved enough with Perl to edit the wiki is already comfortable with the Perl 5 license.
  • (5:31:36 PM) pfenwick: I imagine so.  ;)
  • (5:32:19 PM) Schwern: So here's my real question. Is PerlNet interested in off-loading its generic Perl 5 content off on the TPF wiki? Would it allow you to focus better on regional issues?
  • (5:32:55 PM) pfenwick: Firstly, my opinion doesn't speak for everyone. I'm just one of the admins.
  • (5:34:01 PM) pfenwick: But my gut feeling is that off-loading P5 content would actually hurt PerlNet. We do get quite a few contributions from outside of AU/NZ, and a lot of the contributions we get form inside AU/NZ are on generalised topics.
  • (5:35:07 PM) pfenwick: In the past we've occasionally sucked up other Perl 5 wikis. The POD indexing project may be one of them.
  • (5:36:34 PM) pfenwick: My opinion is also that the bigger the bigger the community, the more healthy it will be. Having two wikis compete for content and contributions isn't going to be maximally productive.
  • (5:37:10 PM) Schwern: Yes, it will be silly to duplicate and cross-link every page.
  • (5:37:24 PM) Schwern: My goal is to have some sort of official-looking Perl 5 wiki.
  • (5:37:51 PM) Schwern: I don't particularly care what, who or where it runs.
  • (5:38:21 PM) Schwern: If this might mean elevating PerlNet and shutting down my fledgling, so be it.
  • (5:39:27 PM) pfenwick: Well, that's certainly one possibility.  :) I'm guessing there'd be no objections to having regional content on the official-looking P5 wiki?
  • (5:40:23 PM) Schwern: At this point, any content is welcome.
  • (5:40:40 PM) Schwern: The problem is not enough content, not too much.
  • (5:41:24 PM) Schwern: Which I guess is the other alternative, TPF absorbs PerlNet completely.
  • (5:41:47 PM) pfenwick: Apologies for my moment of silence there. I've got jarich (one of the other admins) sitting next to me.
  • (5:41:57 PM) pfenwick: So there's non-IRC discussions taking place. ;)
  • (5:42:47 PM) pfenwick: It seems that conceptually, we have no philosophical objection to there being a merger into a One True P5 Wiki.
  • (5:42:48 PM) jarich: I like perlnet, but I'm not really attached to it. I'd prefer a really active wiki rather than two nearly dead wikis
  • (5:43:11 PM) Schwern: Well, I just want to make two things abundantly clear. 1) There is nothing "official" about this new wiki. I just made it up and happen to know the TPF wiki admin.
  • (5:43:18 PM) jarich: We will need to try to contact the past contributors though if we're going to change the license
  • (5:43:19 PM) Schwern: 2) I don't want a wiki war.
  • (5:43:31 PM) pfenwick: Good, I think we're in agreement there. ;)
  • (5:45:40 PM) pfenwick: I believe that a perlfoundation.org URL is more official than a perl.net.au URL. ;)
  • (5:47:25 PM) pfenwick: The biggest problems I see with any sort of merge is actually moving the content formatting (if moving from mediawiki to socialtext), and licenses.
  • (5:48:07 PM) Schwern: I think the ST guys have something to convert.
  • (5:49:03 PM) pfenwick: Given that PerlNet has a reasonably small contributor pool, the licensing issue may not become a huge problem. Most of the main contributors would probably be happy to license their content under the P5 license as well, and most can be easily contacted.
  • (5:49:54 PM) Schwern: Ok. There's no rush, mull things over some.
  • (5:50:07 PM) pfenwick: To be honest I'd love to hear thoughts from some of the other admins, particularly stennie.
  • (5:50:41 PM) pfenwick: And from the community in general, for that matter. Most of the content for Melbourne and Sydney Perl Mongers lives on PerlNet.
  • (5:51:10 PM) jarich: pfenwick: we'd have to put in a whole bunch of redirects anyway
  • (5:51:24 PM) jarich: pfenwick: considering how many places already link to perl.net.au
  • (5:51:48 PM) jarich: there's the Perl 6 users FAQ, #perl on freenode as two off the top of my head
  • (5:52:09 PM) pfenwick: Some of those may have moved to the new, more official, P6 wiki. ;)
  • (5:53:18 PM) pfenwick: Schwern: I think you can say that you've got warm feelings from PerlNet, and a general desire for there to be an official P5 wiki, and a general feeling that PerlNet content would be welcome there, in whatever form that may take.
  • (5:54:04 PM) jarich: pfenwick: see: http://www.athenalab.com/Perl_6_Users_FAQ.htm
  • (5:55:54 PM) ***pfenwick guesses he should invite community feedback and pop a discussion page on PerlNet, and e-mail the main contributing communities.
  • (5:58:01 PM) pfenwick: Schwern: While we've got you here, I've got some policy questions for you.  ;) PerlNet has encouraged local businesses and developers to list themselves; we've got a reasonably sized list at http://perl.net.au/wiki/Business_directory
  • (5:59:43 PM) pfenwick: Schwern: They're obviously advertisements, and are intended as such. It would be worth thinking about whether or not such content would be considered welcome or unwelcome on your vision of the official P5 wiki.
  • (6:01:24 PM) Schwern: Let me have a look see.
  • (6:01:46 PM) Schwern: Considering how desperately we need business involvement in Perl I'd say I'd be happy with whatever they want to write.

#PerlNet, 11th July, Aussie EST

  • (11:03:58 AM) pfenwick has changed the topic to: Discussions on PerlNet and TP5W. pfenwick is logging for public discussion, let him know if you object
  • (11:04:14 AM) pfenwick: Good.  ;) I've been doing a lot of thought about the whole wiki thing recently, about PerlNet, and about my personal thoughts about it all.
  • (11:04:50 AM) pfenwick: When PerlNet first started, I was frustrated by the lack of communication between Perl groups in Australia.
  • (11:05:22 AM) pfenwick: Not just between the perl mongers groups. Between businesses that use Perl, and individuals who use Perl, and system administrators, and hobbyists and everyone else.
  • (11:06:16 AM) pfenwick: I've been watching meeting attendance at Melb.pm decline. And regardless of the reasons for this, I felt that the Australian community wasn't growing, and I thought it should be.
  • (11:06:37 AM) Skud: fuuuuck. stupid airlines. *bangs head on desk*
  • (11:06:42 AM) kd: perl has this probelm multinationallyt though
  • (11:06:58 AM) Skud: pfenwick: i agree that it's disturbing
  • (11:07:01 AM) pfenwick: My initial thought was actually along the idea of an Australia.pm, or even an ANZ.pm. That still may be a good idea, it means that people in regional areas or locations with a low Perl presence are still exposed to the community.
  • (11:07:02 AM) ***kd points at hordes of people/organisations using it and nobody admitting to it
  • (11:07:26 AM) kd: well BHP is the only game in town here, and that's java/.net dominated
  • (11:07:37 AM) Skud: pfenwick: that seems to be working for linuxchix/aussiechix
  • (11:07:46 AM) kd: although I believe didymo got some work from them when they 'needed a perl script'
  • (11:07:51 AM) pfenwick: And the other day at Melb.PM we had a discussion that stuck in my mind. What if Perl is becoming the new COBOL in Australia? Lots of people having legacy applications written in Perl, but nobody wanting to use it for new development.
  • (11:08:07 AM) jarich: Skud: yes and no. Melbourne Chix wasn't every really active, but it's now been drowned out by Sydney Chix.
  • (11:08:28 AM) kd: Skud: I need to know if the new harry potter is worth going to the cinema for, please report back
  • (11:08:39 AM) pfenwick: Now, I know there are TONS of people using Perl in Australia. I've been teaching them for years, but it's still extremely hard to get them involved in the community.
  • (11:09:10 AM) kd: pfenwick: we need to startt selling catalyhst and moose
  • (11:09:17 AM) Skud: pfenwick: how would you characterise them, demographically?
  • (11:09:22 AM) kd: in themselves enough to prevent cobolization
  • (11:09:32 AM) Skud: i get the impression that the perl scene is older now than it used to be.
  • (11:09:36 AM) pfenwick: PerlNet was my attempt to make an easy-to-use, easy-to-contribute, locally-based entity that they could get involved with.
  • (11:09:45 AM) ***kd will hapily analyse and publish any regional data anyone wants to give me
  • (11:10:16 AM) pfenwick: Skud: Demographically they've changed. We used to have lots of people on our courses who I'd classify as "highly functional". They were trailblazing new paths, doing new things, making new stuff.
  • (11:10:47 AM) pfenwick: Skud: Now, they're a lot more maintenance programmers and system administrators. However, we're seeing a LOT more people using Windows.
  • (11:10:57 AM) stennie_ left the room (quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
  • (11:11:06 AM) jarich: Skud: they're about the same age
  • (11:11:16 AM) jarich: we get some up to say 50, but we're getting 25 year olds too
  • (11:11:41 AM) pfenwick: Skud: Now, that's not always true. Perl is still being used very heavily for new developments in the printing industry, and at least a year or two ago it was big in defence and intelligence.
  • (11:11:56 AM) ***pfenwick thanks Jacinta for answering the age question.
  • (11:12:13 AM) kd: if you're seeing a lot more ppl using windows that's an indication that the tech is mainstreaming
  • (11:12:43 AM) pfenwick: It is. They're mainly using it for system administration, which is why a lot of my efforts recently have been to try and make Windows sysadmin easier with Perl.
  • (11:12:48 AM) kd: but also on *stab stab stab* stupid corporate desktop standardisation
  • (11:13:11 AM) ***kd still waiting for strawberry perl to ship with PAR
  • (11:13:23 AM) kd: hey perl question
  • (11:13:30 AM) pfenwick: So, my overall goal with anything to do with PerlNet or TP5W is for it to be good for the Australian Perl community. That's where I live. That's where I do business. That's what I want to see growing.
  • (11:14:06 AM) kd: someone on osia said that .au is 5 years behind .us and .eu
  • (11:14:23 AM) kd: which is convenient in a way as it makes local trend spotting easier
  • (11:14:24 AM) pfenwick: I love the international community, but they're not the people who I see each month at meetings. They're not the ones who I'm sharing a drink with at the pub. They're not the ones I can refer work to.
  • (11:15:33 AM) pfenwick: Now, on every course I've conducted since PerlNet "went live", I've been showing my students the site. There are some really good things on there. The list of Perl editors, which I think Alec started years ago, is absolute gold.
  • (11:16:37 AM) pfenwick: So, I know there are lots of bookmarks to PerlNet. People who aren't willing to contribute for whatever reason, but who still use it.
  • (11:17:29 AM) pfenwick: So the big question for me, is what can we do so that at the end of this, the Australian community is stronger for it.
  • (11:17:50 AM) kd: you know, tp5w would merge transpareently with perlnet with openid auth and open media profile?
  • (11:18:04 AM) kd: (just a thought, s/could/might be able to/
  • (11:18:06 AM) kd: )
  • (11:18:37 AM) pfenwick: kd: I've actually been thinking of things along that line, although possibly more lightweight.
  • (11:19:06 AM) Skud: interwiki?
  • (11:19:16 AM) pfenwick: At the moment, all the content on PerlNet is covered by an open license. Anyone can take the content, do what they like with it, provided they continue to use that license.
  • (11:19:31 AM) pfenwick: Skud, can you enlighten us?
  • (11:19:55 AM) Skud: pfenwick: interwiki is a system that makes it easier to do links between different wikis
  • (11:20:18 AM) Skud: basically you set up something (i haven't actually done this, i've just read it) so you can say p5wiki:Foo or perlnet:Bar
  • (11:20:40 AM) pfenwick: Good. Just wanted to make sure we're on the same page, and there wasn't some amazing Interwiki technology that did more than just links.
  • (11:20:54 AM) Skud: nope.
  • (11:21:00 AM) Skud: but it could be part of the whole solution
  • (11:21:23 AM) pfenwick: We can do that trivially on PerlNet. I insert one row into a table and those links work. I don't see any reason why we shouldn't do that; we already have for CPAN and perldoc, although that's not hugely well documented.
  • (11:21:44 AM) jarich: how easy is it to do on that other wiki software?
  • (11:22:34 AM) pfenwick: Big questions for everyone, I want your honest answers. If we merge PerlNet entirely into P5wiki, will it help the Australian Perl scene as a whole (including businesses, perl mongers groups, lone programmers, etc)?
  • (11:23:02 AM) pfenwick: Oh, and feel free to put up a fight with me if you disagree with anything I say. I'll only think more of you because of it.
  • (11:23:08 AM) Skud: jarich: many wiki platforms support interwiki links, but i'm not sure whether ST does.
  • (11:23:51 AM) Skud: pfenwick: while i agree that there is a need/desire to support and improve the australian perl community, i also have a bit more of a global view
  • (11:24:10 AM) Skud: i think i hang out with international groups more than you do, and have lived o/s and so forth
  • (11:24:37 AM) Skud: so while i think supporting the australian community is worthwhile, it's not the only goal as far as i'm concerned
  • (11:24:56 AM) Skud: though of course if i were running an australian perl business, as you are, i would no doubt change my tune
  • (11:24:59 AM) pfenwick: Good. This is the sort of discussion I was hoping to encourage.
  • (11:25:40 AM) Skud: pfenwick: the other question, i guess, is to what extent do strong international resources help the australian community
  • (11:25:53 AM) Skud: i see the australian IT scene as being incredibly parochial
  • (11:26:01 AM) pfenwick: Amazingly, the business isn't that much of a big deal here. I'd like it to be, I really would. But the amount of work we get due to Perl having an activity community in Australia is quite small compared to the amount of work we get from Perl being Perl.
  • (11:26:10 AM) Skud: it's a very small portion who are international in their view
  • (11:27:21 AM) pfenwick: Skud: Touche. ;)
  • (11:27:59 AM) Skud: so here's the thign
  • (11:28:22 AM) Skud: if you tell australian IT people "there's an australian website about this topic" they're more likely to visit it and use it than "there's a website (somewhere in the US) about this subject"
  • (11:28:41 AM) pfenwick: I love it when you make my arguments for me. ;)
  • (11:28:56 AM) Skud: mmm
  • (11:29:03 AM) Skud: but
  • (11:29:25 AM) Skud: i think that parochial attitude SUCKS
  • (11:29:31 AM) Skud: and i have no particular wish to support it.
  • (11:29:43 AM) ***pfenwick applauds!
  • (11:29:44 AM) Skud: i would rather find ways to bring australia into the century of the fruitbat
  • (11:29:53 AM) jarich: Skud: I disagree. In my experience IT people in Australia tend to believe more in sites from elsewhere than in sites from Australia
  • (11:30:18 AM) jarich: possibly due to the fact that sites on specific subjects don't tend to exist in the .au domain space
  • (11:30:52 AM) pfenwick: So, what we want are teasers. We want to tempt people in Australia to sites they're more likely to visit (those with an Australian domain or viewpoint or branding), but use them to coax them out into the big worldwide community?
  • (11:31:03 AM) Skud: pfenwick: that would be my preference.
  • (11:31:37 AM) kd: also we have a fun timezone difference with rtw
  • (11:31:45 AM) pfenwick: That sounds like a good argument for keeping PerlNet, keeping regional content on PerlNet, and doing lots of Interwiki links to P5wiki, perlmonks, use.perl, etc
  • (11:32:23 AM) Skud: kd: rtw?
  • (11:32:31 AM) pfenwick: Which is what most people have been trying to tell me so far, unless I've been completely misinterpreting the discussion.
  • (11:33:29 AM) pfenwick: The question then comes down to what do we do with the non-regional content on PerlNet.
  • (11:33:51 AM) jarich: Skud: rtw: rest of the world
  • (11:34:21 AM) pfenwick: I've been throwing around ideas of mirroring, rather than moving. Rather than there being a resource that people were using, that's now up and gone, we instead suck content down, or push content up (don't care which).
  • (11:35:06 AM) pfenwick: The page on one site becomes the master, and the slave page is essentially locked from normal edits, with a big note saying that the page at XYZ should be the one that changes are made to.
  • (11:35:49 AM) pfenwick: It preserves the local content. It means that things like the search interface continue to work (I, at least, use it all the time). It opens the gateway to actually sucking down lots of stuff onto PerlNet which we didn't have before, if that be our wish.
  • (11:36:20 AM) kd: pfenwick: http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/07/11/1975472.htm
  • (11:36:33 AM) pfenwick: The downside is that MW and ST use different syntaxes. If they were both MW, then I could have a working mirror solution in about 30 minutes. Goodness knows I've got enough MW bot code floating about
  • (11:37:20 AM) pfenwick: kd: That's enormous!
  • (11:37:48 AM) pfenwick: Opinions on mirroring of content? I'm happy for someone to say it's a bad idea, or a good idea. But I'd love feedback.
  • (11:37:59 AM) pfenwick: Let's assume we can work out the licensing differences.
  • (11:38:05 AM) jarich: I like the idea except for the fact that it'll probably be confusing
  • (11:38:14 AM) Skud: i don't like hte idea that much
  • (11:39:06 AM) pfenwick: Skud: What would you propose as an alternative? Move existing content entirely to P5wiki, and put in redirects? Or keep the content on PerlNet, and put in redirects from P5wiki? Or something entirely different?
  • (11:39:22 AM) pfenwick: Schwern/stennie: If you're about, I'd love your feedback here as well.
  • (11:42:44 AM) pfenwick: Moving it to p5wiki is the obvious choice for improving the international Perl scene as a whole.
  • (11:43:50 AM) pfenwick: If the content originated on PerlNet, then (under the current cc-by-sa license), there needs to be a PerlNet link. That gives us something of a way of "going back" to PerlNet, for people who didn't expect to end up somewhere else.
  • (11:47:06 AM) kd: spawn external links in new tab/window
  • (11:48:22 AM) pfenwick: kd: I'm a little confused.
  • (11:48:33 AM) Skud: kd: ewww, i hate that with a passion
  • (11:48:58 AM) pfenwick: Let's pretend that we're looking at http://perl.net.au/wiki/Catalyst . PerlNet's catalyst page is way better than P5wiki's page at the moment. At least in terms of volume of content.
  • (11:49:39 AM) pfenwick: They're currently occupying the same conceptual box. It's silly to have two, although there's nothing stopping us from doing so.
  • (11:50:33 AM) pfenwick: If we were to move the content from PerlNet to P5wiki, then we'd need something left on the PerlNet catalyst page. If people navigate to it directly, they need to end up somewhere.
  • (11:51:03 AM) pfenwick: Which means that we can't exactly do a new tab/window, because it's likely people will have such pages bookmarked.
  • (11:51:07 AM) Schwern: Can MediaWiki do external redirects?
  • (11:51:17 AM) pfenwick: Schwern! Welcome to the conversation.  :)
  • (11:51:20 AM) Schwern: I mean, it'll be obvious they're on another wiki
  • (11:51:40 AM) pfenwick: Schwern: It can. If not, I can make it.
  • (11:52:21 AM) Schwern: Is there maybe some sort of clever API so that you can view and edit Perl 5 Wiki pages as if you're still on PerlNet?
  • (11:52:25 AM) pfenwick: Schwern: I think the newer versions can only do external redirects if the target is in the interwiki table. If that's been changed, I can still alter it without needing to touch the MW code, provided that we're using a javascript capable browser.
  • (11:52:40 AM) pfenwick: Schwern: Like doing clever things with iframes?
  • (11:53:02 AM) Schwern: pfenwick: No, thinking more like taking advantage of ST's RSS feed or REST API or...
  • (11:53:03 AM) ***Schwern waves hands
  • (11:53:24 AM) pfenwick: ST has a REST API?
  • (11:53:28 AM) Schwern: Sure does
  • (11:53:54 AM) pfenwick: For pushing/pulling content?
  • (11:54:01 AM) Schwern: Pulling for sure.
  • (11:54:08 AM) Schwern: Getting some more info
  • (11:54:11 AM) jarich: Schwern: we still need a way of accessing the original content and list of changes/contributors.
  • (11:54:19 AM) Schwern: jarich:  ?
  • (11:54:30 AM) Schwern: jarich: I mean, you can go to the real wiki for that.
  • (11:54:45 AM) Schwern: http://www.socialtext.net/st-rest-docs/index.cgi?socialtext_rest_documentation
  • (11:55:03 AM) Schwern: Its still not clear to me if there's benefit in pretending that Perl 5 Wiki pages are PerlNet pages.
  • (11:55:12 AM) Schwern: Allowing external redirects seems the way to go
  • (11:55:22 AM) Schwern: Simple and I don't think anyone will be confused.
  • (11:55:32 AM) jarich: Schwern: which one do you mean by "the real wiki"? I presume you're talking about changing the appropriate perlnet pages to do this funky thing with REST and whatnot, but we will still need a way of accessing how the page used to be
  • (11:55:48 AM) Schwern: jarich: How it used to be?
  • (11:55:55 AM) Schwern: I don't understand.
  • (11:56:16 AM) Schwern: I'm talking about moving page content from PerlNet to Perl 5 Wiki and then PerlNet doing an external link redirect.
  • (11:56:25 AM) jarich: how they are now. Regardless of which license we use, we must attribute the original creators with the dues
  • (11:56:31 AM) Schwern: So it can still refer to, for example, Larry Wall but it just bounces to the Perl 5 Wiki
  • (11:56:51 AM) pfenwick: Okay, ST has a nice interface for getting to its content. That's a good thing for my mirroring idea, expect for the conversion between MW and ST mark-up format.
  • (11:57:05 AM) Schwern: jarich: Oh, then the external redirect sounds like the way to go. Since the old revisions are still available under the hood if anyone want sto get to them.
  • (11:57:25 AM) Schwern: jarich: But honestly for wiki pages I'm really not too worried about attribution. Its a wiki. Its content is ephemoral.
  • (11:57:42 AM) pfenwick: Schwern: The move-and-bounce is easy.
  • (11:57:53 AM) jarich: Schwern: both the licenses you're talking about and the CC-SA licenses require attribution
  • (11:58:01 AM) jarich: we can't just pretend they don't matter
  • (11:58:31 AM) Schwern: jarich: The Perl license doesn't require per change attribution AFAIK.
  • (11:59:10 AM) pfenwick: As for attribution, we have a lot of content from people who are no longer active participants, or only occasional participants. We can hardly make decisions on their behalf.
  • (11:59:24 AM) ChangesBot: r5774 | Jarich++ | http://perl.net.au/wiki/?title=User:Jarich&diff=8130&oldid=8093 | removed template
  • (11:59:58 AM) Schwern: pfenwick: To be blunt and pragmatic, I really doubt anyone truly cares.
  • (12:00:10 PM) Schwern: Which is me saying "I wish this would just go away"
  • (12:00:36 PM) Schwern: I dunno, maybe the Perl 5 Wiki can just tack on yet another license. :)
  • (12:00:54 PM) Schwern: Artistic or GPL or CC-SA. :)
  • (12:00:58 PM) pfenwick: Schwern: Assume it does go away. If you tack on cc-by-sa, then it almost goes away entirely.
  • (12:01:26 PM) Schwern: pfenwick: Are you also in the "I wish this would go away" boat?
  • (12:01:28 PM) pfenwick: At least, it goes away with a single link on any page using cc-by-sa content.
  • (12:02:11 PM) Schwern: What's your email address? I'm going to consult some wizards.
  • (12:02:33 PM) pfenwick: Schwern: I am, but I'm not happy to make that decision for everyone else. Although having spent a lot of time reading licenses recently, I think that the cc-by-sa license is *much* nicer than the Perl license for textual content.
  • (12:03:03 PM) pfenwick: The Artistic and GPL all talk about code. They're *very* unclear when it comes to text. The cc-by-sa is much much clearer.
  • (12:03:18 PM) Schwern: pjf@perltraining.com.au?
  • (12:03:20 PM) pfenwick: Schwern: pjf@perltraining.com.au, or pjf@cpan.org. Both end up in the same plac.
  • (12:06:28 PM) Schwern: Who owns the copyright on PerlNet content?
  • (12:06:51 PM) pfenwick: I want to try and avoid the situation where either: a) Someone makes a stink about their content being duplicated without the license being adhered to. Or b) someone not making a stink, but harbouring a grudge because of it. b) is potentially worse, since we may lose community members quietly.
  • (12:06:58 PM) pfenwick: Schwern: The individual contributors.
  • (12:07:16 PM) pfenwick: http://perl.net.au/wiki/PerlNet:Copyrights
  • (12:08:21 PM) pfenwick: We have no requirement that people transfer copyright if they contribute; doing so would be a barrier to entry. We only require that they license their content.
  • (12:09:48 PM) Schwern: I've sent an email to Bill and Allison at TPF.
  • (12:09:58 PM) Schwern: They know how to figure this stuff out
  • (12:10:12 PM) Schwern: Probably what will happen is I'll just change the Perl 5 Wiki licensing terms.
  • (12:10:42 PM) pfenwick: Schwern: I don't suppose I can get CC'ed in on the mail in question?
  • (12:10:55 PM) Schwern: I'll go back in my time machine and make sure you're CC'd.
  • (12:11:03 PM) pfenwick: Schwern: Thanks!
  • (12:11:07 PM) ***Schwern blips briefly in and out of existance.
  • (12:11:08 PM) Schwern: Done.
  • (12:12:58 PM) pfenwick: I've been having a hard time collecting opinions about merging. At the moment where opinions have been expressed, they've been towards keeping local content on PerlNet, and shifting general content to P5wiki.
  • (12:15:00 PM) pfenwick: Which means that will probably end up being our course of action. Of course, there's nothing stopping P5wiki from grabbing PerlNet content and using it now, provided a link to the original page is given. That can be made into a template, if ST supports such things.
  • (12:15:39 PM) pfenwick: Schwern: Oh, I like your use.perl post. Thank-you for that.
  • (12:19:24 PM) pfenwick: Skud: If you're about, I'd still love your honest opinions and thoughts on the best way to use PerlNet as a teaser for Australians to find the wider Perl community.
  • (12:26:49 PM) ChangesBot: r5775 | PJF++ | http://perl.net.au/wiki/?title=User:PJF/Sandbox&diff=8131&oldid=0 | Interwiki link test
  • (12:28:19 PM) Skud: pfenwick: i'm here kind of vaguely/intermittently
  • (12:28:25 PM) ChangesBot: r5776 | PJF++ | http://perl.net.au/wiki/?title=User:PJF/Sandbox&diff=8132&oldid=8131 | test
  • (12:28:50 PM) pfenwick: Skud: Understood. I'm not expecting anyone to be glued to their IRC clients.
  • (12:29:06 PM) pfenwick: However I do very much respect your opinions and ideas, so I'd love any input you may have.
  • (12:29:22 PM) ChangesBot: r5777 | PJF++ | http://perl.net.au/wiki/?title=User:PJF/Sandbox&diff=8133&oldid=8132 | Interwiki redirect test
  • (12:33:45 PM) ***pfenwick discovers that mediawiki *does* support transcluding pages!
  • (12:34:12 PM) pfenwick: Although since the setting is $wgEnableScaryTranscluding, I'm guessing it's somewhat experimental and/or scary. ;)
  • (12:35:32 PM) Skud: heh
  • (12:36:26 PM) pfenwick: And it also appears that we have a very nice feature if we wish to use it...
  • (12:37:05 PM) pfenwick: I've just created: http://perl.net.au/wiki/User:PJF/Sandbox ; of which the source can be seen at http://perl.net.au/wiki/User:PJF/Sandbox&redirect=no
  • (12:37:06 PM) jarich: Schwern: another wish for Socialtext. The Login + Edit page you get to when you click on the button should link to how to register
  • (12:37:39 PM) pfenwick: This does an external, automatic, transparent redirect.
  • (12:38:26 PM) pfenwick: However, it also adds a bunch of extra information to the URL. Most notably, an rdfrom link.
  • (12:39:16 PM) Schwern: jarich: Stick it on the Socialtext feature request page, please
  • (12:39:18 PM) pfenwick: Unfortunately these seems to confuse ST, but it means (if ST can respect such a link) we can put a "back to PerlNet" page when we see it.
  • (12:39:56 PM) jarich: Schwern: once I have an account, I will
  • (12:40:08 PM) ***jarich is waiting for greylisting
  • (12:41:36 PM) Skud: how do you tell what web server/version a website is using?
  • (12:41:49 PM) ChangesBot: r5778 | PJF++ | http://perl.net.au/wiki/?title=Special:Log/move&diff=0&oldid=0 | User:PJF/Sandbox moved to User:PJF/Redirect: Sample redirect
  • (12:42:02 PM) pfenwick: Skud: I usually talk HTTP to it directly, and do a head request.
  • (12:42:08 PM) Skud: mmm, yeah, that'd do it.
  • (12:42:15 PM) Skud: does Mech have a head() method i wonder?
  • (12:42:20 PM) jarich: weird.... I've been logged into Joi Ito Socialtext Workspace on one browser (after following the confirmation link) and redirected to http://www.perlfoundation.org/ on another after logging in there...
  • (12:42:28 PM) pfenwick: telnet perl.net.au http; HEAD / HTTP/1.0
  • (12:42:54 PM) Skud: yeah. but i've got a long list of domains i want to check.
  • (12:42:56 PM) Skud: so i'll script it.
  • (12:51:19 PM) pfenwick: Summary of opinions I've seen so far, so that I don't misrepresent anyone.
  • (12:51:45 PM) pfenwick: Stennie, Skud: Nice to keep local content on PerlNet, move general content to p5wiki.
  • (12:52:01 PM) pfenwick: Schwern: Like to suck pages onto p5wiki. Don't care how. ;)
  • (12:53:32 PM) pfenwick: Scottp: Nice to have a wiki for each pm.org group. (However I don't think anyone is offering this right now)
  • (12:54:25 PM) Skud: pfenwick, sounds right for me.
  • (12:54:30 PM) Skud: anyway, off to lunch.
  • (12:54:31 PM) pfenwick: PJF: Anything to grow the Perl community in Australia, and to encourage cross-pollination.
  • (12:55:44 PM) pfenwick: Alec threw about some ideas about transclusion. I don't know if I've seen strong opinions from anyone else, but I'd love to be corrected.
  • (1:00:49 PM) pfenwick: So it looks like there's a general feel that general content should be moved to the p5wiki, so that's what I'll work towards. Everyone, thank-you very much for your contributions.


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